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#1646 2007-12-10 21:19 GMT-5 hours    
Hi all,
Just wanted to let you know that the plus sign (+) can now be included in German registrations. We've changed the scripts and inserting the "+" now will not cause any problems. We're in the process of updating all the aircraft that are in the database already and are about half way done. So keep that in mind for future uploads please.

-Ray

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#1651 2007-12-11 11:28 GMT-5 hours    
Ray,
the "+" (=cross) is NOT part of the German registration, it is the national insigna as placed on the wings. Or the "stars & stripes" for the American Air Forces.
When referring to Luftwaffe a/c you also use e.g. "4620" and not "46 cross 20".
And if you look on the new Luftwaffe EC135 you will see the "+" on the door and the 4-digit-number written on the tail!

So please retain the system you have had from the beginning on!

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Andreas
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#1652 2007-12-11 12:34 GMT-5 hours    
Andreas,

This has been a hot topic of conversation in the military spotter community for many years, whether or not to include the + in German serials and there is probably no right or wrong answer to it to be honest?

Yes I agree with you that it is the national insignia, however, a lot of the official aircraft documention includes the + sign in the registration column, as do most databases and books available for spotters, granted not all but the vast majority do, out of all the books I ever bought when I was a serious spotter, all but one brand included the + and my current database (Aerodata) also includes them, as does the Scramble online database.

The vast majority of people who upload here also include the + in the registration field meaning we were having to remove them when screening images.

So here is my question.

If its not part of the reg, why has it been included in official documentation of German military aircraft??.

As I said at the top, I am not actually sure if there is a definitive right or wrong answer to this one.

Also it took a long time to change them over so it will take a while to change them all back, but the most time consuming thing was getting the scripts to work when the + was included for the search engine and autofill to work correctly.

Personally I think its looks better but you obviously do not?

Regards

John

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What don't kill you make you more strong"

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#1653 2007-12-11 13:37 GMT-5 hours    
Hi John,
thanks for the input for discussion!
The current German reg system dates back to 1967/68.
Until then the regs constisted out of 2 letters and three numbers, referring to the service and squadron (letters) and the wing and the aircraft (numbers) - together with the iron cross as a national marking.
The new system, which is still current today, switched from the two letters & three numbers to a "tactical code consisting of (four) numbers" (link at luftwaffe.de)
The first two digits are for the aircraft type, the last to for the aircraft, "with the national marking in between".
This is quite clear for me.

The '-' [dash] as a sign of seperation as it is used in the registrations/codes of other air forces is OK, but including a '+' [plus?] to the Luftwaffe code as a vague representation of the iron cross (=national insignia) is, in my opinion, is a bit strange.

Andreas
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#1655 2007-12-11 15:59 GMT-5 hours    
Hi Andreas,
That had been my assumption all along that the '+' in books, magazines, etc. just represents the iron cross there and should not be included as part of the registration. But, John and Jorg were really hot about it as it is written that way in many, many spotter books and other databases, and this would be a good way for us to differentiate ourselves from the other sites who are not strictly military like we are. But I must admit that I have seen them represented that way in numerous books and magazines as well. Since it seems to be a common way of writing them, would it be completely wrong though?

-Ray

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#1658 2007-12-11 19:27 GMT-5 hours    
Quote
admin :
...Since it seems to be a common way of writing them, would it be completely wrong though?


No, but what would you do if other Air Forces have a similar way in putting their regs on aircraft and their nat. insignia is not so easily typed on the keyboard. And what will you do with the EC135?
Just some thoughts...

Andreas
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#1659 2007-12-11 20:14 GMT-5 hours    
Hi Ray,

the German reg. system consisting of four numbers, that´s correct.
In many books I saw the "plus" used between the tactical code, so in some technical books
I saw at Holloman AFB during my base visit in the year 2000.
So, I like the "plus" with the German reg. It looks better for me!

Rainer

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#1660 2007-12-11 21:27 GMT-5 hours    
Andreas, I think I will let Jorg and John answer that.

Rainer, that's one of the reasons we did it, because it will be displayed the way most people are used to seeing them. It is very familiar to them in this format.

-Ray

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#1661 2007-12-11 21:36 GMT-5 hours    
Well, I can adapt myself

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Photo © Andreas Zeitler - Flying-Wings


Andreas

tried to do the [photoid]-thing, but it didn't work...
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#1662 2007-12-11 21:58 GMT-5 hours    
Quote
Andreas :
...
tried to do the [photoid]-thing, but it didn't work...



You must be using IE6. Click Refresh and it will show up. No problems with IE7 or Firefox. I can see the photo just fine.

-Ray

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#1663 2007-12-11 22:44 GMT-5 hours    
Andreas,

I appreciate what you are saying about the insignia but I think Ray has hit the mark with that last comment, it was done because that is the format that most of us see and relate to, its certainly makes you understand that its a German aircraft as soon as you see it that written in that style.

I have seen documentation both with and without the cross included, so I am still not sure there is a definitive answer to all this, but I really do believe that it looks better this way because for the main part thats how we see the registrations displayed on the aircraft.

Oh, and that F4 burner shot is rather nice fella., keep em coming

Regards

John

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What don't kill you make you more strong"

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#1665 2007-12-12 14:57 GMT-5 hours    
Hi folks,

Whilst I'm perfectly happy to go with the flow on this one I'd just like to throw my piece into the ring. As part of my job I see a huge amount of technical documentation regarding Typhoon and on none of that does the national cross appear as part of the serial presentation, all serials are referred to as '3008' etc.

I can accept the desire to view the serial in a manner in which people are a more familiar - but is it correct? The Eurocopter example is a classic and illustrates the point perfectly; if the + was part of the serial then surely it would be displayed as such? I suspect the debate will go on!

Cheers, Tom

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#1666 2007-12-12 20:04 GMT-5 hours    
Good point, Tom!

And what shall I do with the Austrian ones? '-' or 'o' or nothing

EDIT:
To answer that question myself: without anything, so they will be like "7LWA" for the Eurofighters eg.
At least the website of the Bundesheer says so: http://www.bundesheer.at/cms/artikel.php?ID=3767

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Similar approach to German markings I would say...

Bye

Andreas
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#1745 2007-12-28 15:12 GMT-5 hours    
Is there an update on this issue? I uploaded this shot without the '+' and it was accepted without problems:

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Photo © Jeremy Gould


Edit: Looks like the info has now been amended to include the '+'.

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